What Men Hide

Here's a powerful episode where I chat with my friend Gregory Osias about the often-overlooked complexities of vulnerability in men's mental health. We talk about how societal expectations shape male identities and the importance of creating vulnerability space.

Greg talks about how support systems and self-care practices helped him heal through grief and mental health challenges. I talk about my recent mental health challenges and how I deal with them.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey, what's up? In this episode, me and my boy Greg talk about something that most men will never talk about. And that is a vulnerability of our mental health. My name is Jonathan. And this is Times with Dad. So, so so Greg, I want to ask you, right? I want to ask you this question. I thought of this question. And I was like, you know, I know you and I've known you for a while. And I know how I would describe you and all these things. But I was curious, how would you describe yourself as a person?

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Super curious, um, insightful, caring, adventurous to some degree. Uh I think I'm a very loving person. I think my wife would agree with that. And giving. I'll take that. I'm a giver. Definitely a giver.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

How would you describe yourself as a man? Can you say times with dad?

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Time is that. So I saw this program started.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

I was super glad that you send these topics over that you mentioned because they were definitely not like a hundred percent like focused as a father. It was focused as like a man and just core beings. And I was like, yes, I need, yes, I want these conversations. I, you know, I need these conversations. Um and then I chose the mental health one because it was like not really talked about, really, ever. Um, I was talking to someone recently who I used to work with, and I remember this. I doubt they remember, right? You know how sometimes you remember something people don't, and for whatever reason you do and they don't. Uh I remember he was on his Snapchat one day, and um he was working at his job and they instituted during COVID, I think like a mental health day, like you could take off as like an additional like a quota for your PTL. And um, the person put in, I'm having a mental day. And I I recall this person Snapchatting that from like the Slack and was like, I don't know why, but this frustrates me so much, right? That same person I talked to a week ago just so oddly just reached out to me. I haven't taught to this person in years, and uh I told him I was gonna have a mental health for men's podcast episode with you. And he's like, I'm so glad you're doing that. Uh it's it's it's a topic that's not discussed as much. And he was like, Because you know I go through mental health stuff, and I didn't know that. Uh and it was interesting to see the paradigm shift with that person. It was also interesting to see uh, I'm not sure how much you follow sports, to be honest, but um Amon Shepard recently I saw on Instagram. Now he said this years ago, but I saw it recently, where he was like, I thought the pressure was like fake. I thought it was an excuse people will say, right? And he's like, he got injured and he couldn't do anything. And you know, sometimes your your value is what you're good at, and when you get that taken away, you kind of start to question stuff or whatever the case. Uh and he said that he started going through depression, and he uh he discovered that like you know, it's not a fake thing, it's a it's a very serious thing, and it's a say it's something that unless you see it or experience it sometimes, you can't have that that sentiment of like it's fake, right? With all of that, that's when I also told you that I found this other podcast and found that through chance through social exploring. Um the Chris Williamson one I told you about, and where he was interviewing some dude, Dwayne, who I've never heard of, and it was uh a topic that he asked him. He's like, you know, what do you think more women wish what do you think more women understood from a man? His answer verbatim was there's a thousand times more going on inside the man's head than you have any idea. He's carrying burdens that you don't have a clue about, and he doesn't know how to express them, and he doesn't know what to do about it, and he figures if he puts it out there and communicates it, it's just gonna be shot down, he's gonna be called a fool, called weak, so he carries it inside, and he has no clue how to handle the burdens and the hell that most men are carrying inside and not even showing you. There are so many things there, right, that he says that I want to go over with you. But the first thing is I want to know from your perspective what aspects do you agree with that comment. Yeah that Dwayne said.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

You experience it. I think that that's a right, that's valid. Like I think there are a lot of things that happen across the world that we don't we can't associate ourselves with, we can't empathize with in many ways because it's just so foreign to us until it happens to us and it hits us smack dad in the face that we come to the realization that we're we may be just as flawed as the next man, right? That it's not just made up in our heads, but it's something that we all may go through at some point in period of the time. And like so, and then in addressing the the comment that was made, um there are millions, I would say not that, there are millions of, if not billions of thoughts that happen into a man that go in inside of a man's mind on a regular basis, um, in terms of the things that we're experiencing. I think that growing up, you know, the the, you know, suck it up, I don't care where, you know, culture that you may be from, and I shouldn't really brush, uh paint a broad brushstroke, but I think that many cultures embody this um kind of toxic masculinity kind of behaviors in terms of raising young boys into men. And letting people, letting them believe that there's something wrong with them if they show any sign of what they believe is weakness, right? And it's unfortunate because there's a lot of strength that comes in vulnerability, right? And being open and honest with yourself in terms of your feelings and how to express yourself. I think that's why we have a lot of relationships that also end because communication wasn't at the grassroot of the relationship. And a lot of that might have been based on the fact that as a child, you weren't even able to communicate how you felt. So, how are you supposed to communicate how you feel as a man? Right. And people wonder why there are men with mental health issues and that are walking around trying to figure out their problems and not speaking up around, you know, needing help or wanting it. Um, a lot of that has to do with the burden of um who came before them as well, right? So if there were men that also didn't have an opportunity to process their own feelings or emotions, they're learning from those men, right? I unfortunately didn't have a father in my life, so I learned from my mom. So they was always communicating. So that's why I'm a I'm a I think I'm a fairly decent communicator. But the reality is that that didn't make me exempt from societal norms of feeling like, oh, I gotta put on, I gotta be strong, I gotta not show people this or show any side of weakness that may be associated with femininity in any way. And it's unfortunate because I think that in in some ways it may help you in terms of surviving the world that we live in, but in the long term, it may hurt you because if you spawn children or raise children, I don't want to say spawn them, but if you raise children, um, they're learning from you. You know, and if you're not correcting some of the learned behavior that you grew up with, those children are gonna do the same thing that you did and are gonna struggle the same way you did. And there's no reason for that to happen. I'm a big believer, John. I tell you this all the time. Like always I like to talk to people who are a lot older than me and ask them a ton of questions. And one of the questions I always ask them is what's one thing you wish you could have done or should have done that you regret never doing? And guess what I do? As soon as they tell me, I go and do it. The reason why is because there's no reason why that I need to make that same mistake or struggle the way they struggle, because they already told me the roadmap, they already gave me the game plan, they told me what not to do. So all I have to do is do exactly the opposite or some semblance of that, and I'm gonna be successful, I'm gonna be okay. Um, and I wish that we had more of that mentality as well. But back to mental health. I think yeah, all of the comments that were made in regards to the things that men think about, the things that we go through, the burdens that we carry, the unspoken hurt, right? Undealt with trauma that we deal with or don't deal with, um that that can manifest into physical health issues, mental health issues, as we're talking about, but a whole lot of other things going on, right? That impact um not only you as an individual, but your relationship with people and how you also see the world.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Have you have you ever had any experience with mental health challenges?

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Uh yeah. I think um, you know, my first experience with it like hit me hard might have been in um college. I was an undergrad, I just uh transferred um to an HBCU uh in Maryland, and there were a lot of people dying around me. And when I say around me, it's just people that I knew like in high school. Also they were family members passing away. And this was like within months of each other. And so to me, that was a lot of that was a lot of trauma at one time. And so that's why like people not laugh at me, but they say the bar is very low when I respond this way. When people say to me, Hey, how's it going? Or how are you doing today? And I said, It's a good day because I'm alive, and they don't understand where that's rooted from. That's rooted from a lot of trauma of me seeing a lot of people pass away in a short span of time and having to go to funerals. That's not a good feeling, you know what I'm saying? And so you look at life a lot differently. So I think that it gave me an appreciation for life a little bit more, and that's why when I do talk to people and I hope to motivate them and at least give some semblance of happiness, right? Because I choose happiness and I want to make people feel happy when they're with me because man, there's so much sadness going on in this world. And so during that period of time, anyways, I think I struggled with being able to process the thought of death and its infiniteness, right? And not knowing that I don't know what comes after. I hope that there's a life after this, but I don't know. And processing that all while, you know, being in a new environment, trying to make me friends, also getting good grades, um, and uh not being a disappointment to my mom because she's a big believer in education. And if you don't got an education, you ain't ish. So, but that period of just people close to me that I passed away, that was hard. That that definitely was very hard for me, a time where I definitely cried for a couple of nights every night. Um, not only for their loss, but just the just dealing with that. And I don't, I'm somebody that doesn't really cry like that off the top, you know, drop the dime. When people are passing away, people that are like meaningful to you, that meant something to you, that represents something in your life, that's hard. That's hard, man. That's hard.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Let me ask you this question. You you gave that great example, right? Like of mourning and how that was challenging. What I'm interested to know is were you aware that was a mental health struggle you were having at that moment? Or did you feel it it was more just a sadness due to the mourning?

SPEAKER_02 12:36

I think I probably felt that it was a sadness due to the mourning, the the mourning of those individuals. But when I look back at it, I think that when you have mental health issues or struggles or challenges, it's your inability to function on a regular basis, right? The things that you used to do normally that were easy for you based on that experience that you have, it somewhat cripples you, right? So like being able to get to class on time, being able to get my homework done. Like I was when I first got there, I was definitely very studious. And then after all of that stuff started happening, I started slipping a little bit, right? Um, staying up late a little bit more, not able to like really focus or really wanting to even engage with people, you know, you kind of start to retract yourself from what else is going on in your life because you're just like, I'm just in a moment, I'm in a funk. And I just and I'm the type of person like I typically get my energy from people, but in that moment, I was like, nah, I gotta just sit back and be by myself. But in doing that, right, you cripple yourself from kind of the learning and growth um that you could be experiencing and right being in college. I'm a sophomore, I'm at a new school, I'm trying to be turning up and supposed to be going to parties and doing all this stuff. And I'm not I'm not, I don't want to talk to nobody. I want to just crawl into a corner, man, and drink whatever I had around. And uh what we call bum juice, it was E and J. That's what we could afford. So that's what I was doing, you know. But then you come out of the phone after having a series of conversations with people and God, and uh you come out of it eventually. I think it took some time. It wasn't like it happened in a week or two, it probably happened over a quarter of a maybe a semester or two. But it was hard, you know. And uh so I think that that's what differentiated it from being, hey, I'm sad because I'm mourning versus oh, I can't function. This is I'm not able to do what I used to do. That's a problem. But you don't realize that until you're kind of a little bit in it, and then or until you're kind of out of it, if you will. Um, and then you can reflect and look back at it and say, Oh, that's what was going on. But you don't know because you you know, you're you're a kid. How old was I? Like 19? I graduated when I was 17 year, entered my freshman year, 18, I was 19 when I entered my sophomore year. I'm 19 years old. What the hell do I know about mental health?

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Well, this also wasn't wasn't discussed really back then, right? It it was either it was either you're depressed and what are you depressed for, or you're depressed and something's wrong with you, right? And that was just a society view, and there was a third aspect where it was like, you're crazy. That was it, right? Like you're just you're crazy.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Yeah, you think about it too. Like, uh listen, I'm first generation born, my mom is from the Caribbean, and the first thing she'd be like, ah, you're sad. Sorry about what? You can eat, you have you have a roof over your head, you have clothes on your back, you're fine, there's nothing wrong with you. And so to me, it's unfortunate because that can be, you know, it can be very dismissive and it feels um like you're not being validated for how you feel. And then you start to internalize, oh something's wrong with me because ain't nobody else got these types of problems. And to go back to your initial question, like that's those are some things that men internalize. It goes back to like, well, I ain't never seen anybody else have these problems, so there's something wrong with me, right? I've never heard another man talking about then being depressed or sad that all these people are dying around him and he's unable to function. Ain't nobody talking, no one said those things to me. So how would I know what this was?

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Were you at a point where you felt like you kind of communicated to someone?

SPEAKER_02 16:23

Like you're you're no, I don't think I ever did. I think there were people around me that just saw my energy and was like, your energy's been a little low for a little too long, right? And I have cousins that would come and check up on me, or I had a cousin that was living in DC. I went to go visit for a period of time and just said, Hey, what's up, what's going on? And uh, she would be looking out. And uh that was very helpful. That itself, just somebody checking in on you, it makes a world of a difference and it can make you feel not alone, right? Um, but in some instances, like I just wasn't strong enough to pull myself out of it. And sometimes you just don't it's other people that you need in your life that say, Hey, what's up, man? Like what's going on? Like just what's going on? And so that that you saying, I'm I'm okay, I'm good. That can only go for so long without people being like, nah, you're not good. You're not good. I can I can look at you and tell you not good. Your energy is is not good, you know. But um, I attest that to having good relationships with people that you know hopefully had good, I think had good relationships with me.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

These are the people that are still talking today, so you know uh those people you said noticed it, right? But if you were to reach out to them or they were to ask to help you at that time versus maybe now, right? Maybe now be different. But let's say going back to that time, comparing it to now, would you have accepted the help, felt some type of way about it, try to be like like guilt, anything?

SPEAKER_02 17:51

Like if if somebody came to me and asked me, do I need help?

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Yeah, like you, I see, like you said, like you're not right.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

Like they were saying, like if it was positioned in such a way that made me felt less than I would not be engaging with them. You know what I'm saying? Like it's like it's a pride period a piece of me too. It's like I don't want a pity party and I'm not charity. So if you come at me, come at me with authenticity and with respect, knowing that you genuinely care about me, and not because you were trying to quote unquote help me be better. You know what I'm saying? If that makes any sense. I would have just wallowed in whatever for as long as I probably could until you know the some shit probably came out like, oh, you know, you failing everything, bro. You're about to get kicked out of school. But um, it was good that those people are around. I think God put put people in your uh in your path for a reason, especially when you really need them. But to be honest with you, like, yeah, I I think it's all about positioning and approach. And I'm a big believer in that. Like the way you kind of step to somebody makes a huge difference. You can be well intentioned, but your approach is totally off and you will miss the mark on helping that individual. So to me, I I think the important piece is just to kind of know those individuals as much as you can, and even if you don't, try to approach it with as much authenticity and not from a place of hey, I'm your case worker trying to help you, uh, because that that that's not gonna go well. Not with me, anyways. That's just how I operate it.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

That's fair. That's definitely fair. I can see that. I mean, I don't I I'm not a person who's very good at describing my emotions and in and uh even mental state or anything like that. I my wife says it all the time. She's like, you don't you don't uh say anything. And sometimes I don't know. Well, here's the reality.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Like, let me ask you this. What were the first initial emotions you were exposed to?

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Like in terms of like when people said, Hey, are you feeling fill in the blank?

SPEAKER_00 20:04

So I'll be real with you. I don't that that wasn't a question I was accustomed to ever getting. Like okay, well, if you were it just wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

What about when you explained something as a child or as you grew up? When you said, I feel, what did you say, or did you just not say anything?

SPEAKER_00 20:22

So, so my approach then is uh somewhat similar now. I'm slowly trying to break that mold. And uh the approach is you get the question, and I just sit there, and in my head, I'm responding, right? But nothing verbally is coming out.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

What are the words you're saying to yourself in your head? What are the words you're using? Specific words.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Sometimes it's like, if only you knew. Sometimes it's uh I don't got time to worry about this. Um it really depends on the situation, right? A lot of times it's not comfort, and a lot of times uh really it's um it's almost like uh trying to think of the word here. The liberty. Essentially. So here's a great example. Is um Danda asked me a year ago, I believe. It was, I think last summer. She said, I would just like to know more about you. I don't know. And I said, Well what else what else you want to know, right? We've been married for like about to be 10 years. She said, uh, she hit me with this. She hit me with this, and it was a great question. She said, I don't know. I've never heard you talk about certain things. Like, I would love to know what you're afraid of. And uh I was like, You want to know what I guess now? She was like, Yeah, and I was like, Okay, and I really did my best to try to. Answer her question, but I not a word came out because I sat there and then I told her, I said, I gotta think of it. Then she asked me again, and then I told her, I'm like, that's not a question, I don't even think I've ever had the liberty to feel to answer. I don't think I've even like pondered that. And so since I've never pondered it, I don't, I don't know. Like, I I just feel like I I'm not in that position to be able to do that. So when I told her, I was like, I have to worry about like you, kids, providing all those things that like I don't really ever sit back and think those type of questions of like, what am I afraid of? Like, what is bothering me? Oh, something is bothering me. Maybe I should deal with it, maybe I should talk about it, whatever the case, right? And then I also feel like nobody wants to hear it. Like that's that's uh a realization of mine. And I never I never knew people wanted to hear it or or whatever, until like because this mental health thing for me is like a last three or four years uh acceptance of it for myself. I've you know see it in my wife and all of that, and um, and I get it and I don't get it at the same time, right? Um I was talking to my cousin and I and I was venting about something because he asked me, and it was like a very minor event. But we were drinking, I think we were having cigars, and um he was like, you know, pressing a little bit on it. Not like like you said, not like too too much, but like he was just you know asking some questions and he's like, Yo, you're my cousin, you know, like we're very close, this and that. And and I was like, Okay. And so I opened up, I can't remember about what, but opened up. And I got home and he texted me, and he was like, Hey, that was a nice conversation. I wish you'd do that more. And and I was like, uh, why do you want to hear about my problems? And he's like, Because I want to hear about your problems, and I love you, and it's something that you've never shown me, and I've known you, you know, like my whole life. And this is the first time in our 30s that I've ever heard that from you, and I wish you do it more. How that makes you feel um very uncomfortable. Why? Very uncomfortable, very vulnerable, right? It's not uh it's not a side I'm familiar with. Um I'm also the person always hearing, never telling. So that to hear that was like, okay, but then I said to myself, okay, you gotta get out of that, right? Like this no one, no one's winning this battle. It's not even a battle that, and I've never seen someone take pride really in this battle. Like um Dwayne does, and we'll get to that, but uh, but um it's not really a it's not really like a battle you should take pride in. And so now I say to myself, oh, let me let me reach out, but it's still very strategic when I do it, it's still very like reserved because I'm like, do I want to bother them about this right now? Is that gonna bother their day? They probably got other stuff. They don't want what if they're having a good time and then like all this, and then and then I have to now sit there and go to and then the thing, the thing that's tough is like now I'm like, okay, I have to tell you, so I have to formulate it. So now I have to digest it, which means I have to understand it, soak it in, think about it. Um, and I think part of it is like uh is a little strength of mine, which is not a good strength, but it's just to be like, let me disregard it. Uh, I'm just gonna just gonna just forget about it and and and just not worry about it. And because I don't do that, um, it's it's it's good in a way because like Thunder says to me, she's like, I don't know how you're as strong as you are. And and I will say the thing that makes me very surprised to hear um hearing it said to me, but hearing people say it that I'm men. Uh I've heard this in the last year. I've heard a lot, I've heard it from you, um, even was there was like you're strong, right? And I give you a lot of credit. And it makes me very uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

I remember you like froze. You like, what?

SPEAKER_00 26:26

I was like, it makes me, yeah, it makes me very uncomfortable. And a friend of mine said it to me almost like you did, like face to face, right? Like you was like, listen, look at me. And you was like, this is some real stuff right here. Like I and and I I I I took it and like you you remember, I kind of was like, Yeah, yeah, thanks. Just boom, transitioned. So, but when my friend did it again recently, uh, someone I grew up with, and he said it like four times in a row, like boom. Oh, you didn't hear me, boom, oh you didn't hear me, boom. Oh, and he and after the fourth time, I was like, and I was about to say, I was about to like, okay, let's transition to sports or something. And I was like, why do you say that? Right? Um, and I forget what he said or why he said it, but I remember how I felt, and I definitely felt like very appreciative for myself, but also for that person to be a friend of mine. And and and because that's like for me, it's one thing to hear it, it's another thing to hear from people you respect. And then you're like, okay, okay. Like I am someone wants to hear my problems, it's obviously it's not a negative. Um someone saying they like, you know, saying something positive to me, I should accept that. I should, you know, have as much as I'm gonna have strength in disregarding, I should have strength in accepting, you know, gratitude, accepting my mental health. Um, and that's when I really like not at that moment, but like really was like, okay, I I I'm not uncomfortable to be like, you should go to therapy. I've done therapy, it's great. Um here's why I went to therapy. And so when Thunder told me to start doing therapy, I didn't even hesitate when she was like, Oh, yeah, my job would offer you to pay for your therapy, and you can get like 10 sessions, like, all right, I'm scheduling one next week. And so I did, and I went in there and I was just like, I don't have time to waste. I wanna, I wanna die, I wanna uncover these things. And you go for it now. Yeah, I took it like I took it like a word meeting, like, okay, this is the agenda, this is what we're gonna talk about, right? But I also said to her, um, you know, my family doesn't know what mental health is, they don't know how to deal with it, they don't know if it exists, um, all these stigmas, and so I don't know how to deal with it. Like the the first time I really, really, really, really knew I was going through mental health was like three or four years ago. And I wasn't going through depression. At least I at least I don't think, right? Um, but and I'll be honest, if I was, that would be my next challenge, just accepting that thought. But um I don't think I was going through depression, but I definitely was like, something's not right. Yeah, like my my mind is like consistently working. And I can't, I can't turn it off. And like I'm overwhelmed with nothing. Like I was going through a lot in life, right? But at the same time, like when I say overwhelming nothing, it's like one time, it's almost like one drop in my cup. It was overflowing, and I would, and and and I would be angry. And I wasn't liking the anger, like uh more angry than normal. And then I started noticing like the anger became my like uh not, I don't want to say identity, but it definitely was a common feeling I was carrying a lot. Wasn't expressing it, but I was feeling it. Like, like, oh, this person's calling me. I don't have time to answer that, or this or that, or whatever. And I started saying comments of like, once I'm done building my house, I'm shutting my phone off for six months and I want to be isolated. I don't want no one to reach out to me. Um, and and then I started sitting and thinking, and I was like, this this doesn't, I'm not myself. I don't feel like myself. Then I had to like, now that's a now that's a uh to me, that was a worse story for myself because it was like now I had to remember like what was the feeling of myself. Now I have to work to gain back something that I've already identified with. And and it's a challenge, right? Because now you're like you're trying to get back to your whole. But like you, I I was someone who knew I was early. And so I'm now working towards that. It's it's it was it's it's it's great to like have people like you who just genuinely reach out. Um, I remember like you reached out to me when I first had Avery, and you was like, Hey, I'm calling you Happy Father's Day. And I was like, Whoa. And he was like, talk to me for 15 minutes, and you was like, All right, gotta let you go. I gotta call other fathers like that because men don't get men don't get that gratitude and recognition, right? And so, and so it's it's it's it's a challenge, right? Like mental health is a challenge, it's definitely more of a challenge as a man, and it's definitely more of a challenge, I would say, for me as a man, where I don't want to push it to my kids because you mentioned that. You said like you you you want to teach your kids differently than you, and so like Avi, for an example, like he cries. I don't ever say suck it up, you're a man, but I hear people say sometimes, and I'm like, oh, don't don't say that, you know. Like I I value that you can understand those feelings and express them. And so I asked him, um, how are you feeling and all that? But I am still not good at teaching him how to express it because I don't know how to express it. And then I also, again, the second part is I'm not even still brave enough to express it.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

Okay, hey, listen, man, we're also learning and growing in all this, right? Like no one's gonna be perfect. I always say I I value progress over perfection, and as long as we're moving directionally accurate in the right move direction, then we're good, we're we're good to go. Um, I want to unpack some of the things that you just said, right? And hence the reason I want to go back to why I was asking you about what are the words you were using in your mind when you were uh telling yourself about how you felt, and you were unable to kind of verbalize that verbally, like in word, but also even in your mind. And that's one of the things that we need to conquer as men is being able to name and help our children name the emotion because the vocabulary that I had as a child was very minimal, right? Um I'm sad, I'm mad, I'm angry, I'm happy. Those are the the emotions that we initially learned in school. But for some odd reason, those emotions um and the variation of them seem limited all the way up until like adulthood. And so the entire time, the only emotions that we're exposed to and feeling is sad, mad, angry, happy, whatever. But there's nuance between those emotions in between, I believe. And so I think one of the things that we can continue to do just as men is just name what is it that we are dealing with, and then we can conquer it. Right. We can then attack it in such a way because it's it's like know thy enemy, like you have to know, and I'm not saying every emotion is an enemy, but you have to know what you are dealing with to then be able to say, okay, what how do I formulate a solution? How do I figure out how to move forward? And I think that's also part of opening up and sharing with your friends organically, right? And it shouldn't be something that you feel pressured to do, but just saying like how you feel. And it's great that your cousin said, you know, I wish we had more conversations like this. I like that after all these years, your family, your family matter, right? After all these years, we're finally getting to some of the meat and potatoes of who you are. And so think about your the relationship that you could have had with him. Should you if you would have expressed how you felt throughout the years, right? Think about the growth that our children or our friends missed out on by simply telling us how they felt in the moment and advice we could have given them or they could have sought out from someone else. It's like we're we're limiting our growth. So I love the fact that you were like, man, when I get these therapy sessions, I want to tackle this, I want to tackle this, I want to tackle this. That's the attitude we should be having when we're like five, six, seven years old, right? Even older as we continue to, you know, deal with our emotions, understand them a little bit, become more mature because that's where the growth happens, man. Not where not when we're, you know, in a corner, in a shelter, in into the dark corner or trying to escape everything. I mean, trust me, I I know this from my own experience as well. I think the the the biggest growth that I've had is when I'm being the most vulnerable with my wife. When I'm learning something about myself. Because I like you, my wife has asked me questions like, ain't nobody ever asked me that. And hell, I never asked myself that. And so there have been moments where I've definitely like we've had like I'm crying because I'm like, I don't even know why I'm crying. Like I don't know. But it's like there's something in which I am saying or in which my wife is looking at me, or how she's looking at me, or how my emotions are coming across, like when I'm explaining it, or it's it's going back into a memory, right? And remembering what I'm talking about or what I'm saying. Um because then nobody ever has me that. And so that's what makes I think relationships very significant and meaningful. And I like you have a strong relationship with you because I feel like we bounce ideas off of each other, but also we're genuine with each other. So it doesn't feel forced or like I'm hearing your problems, and I don't I I don't I don't want you to think of it like your problems. This is just life, bro. I don't think that they're problems, I think they're opportunities. That's what they are. That's my hat glass house uh mentality, but they're opportunities for us to learn something. They're not problems because I may be able to learn something from the opportunity that you got going on in your life. That's an opportunity. So I think it's also the way we think about what's going on in our lives that makes a difference, right? And and and how we feel about ourselves, but also how we perceive our relationships with other people, and then also the world. When I say the world, I don't mean a blanket like hey, what's going on in you know, in in Europe, I mean like how we see the world or experience it through our eyes in terms of everything that we are digesting is going to be different based on the emotions that we've dealt with, you know, in our past experiences. And anyway, so I'm going on a tangent, but I wanted to just say like uh I appreciate you sharing that because like it helps me to kind of want to reiterate the importance of my wife and also my son who's for what he's learning, the importance of naming the emotion, right? Let's let's call it out, let's not just sweep it under the rug. I'm not gonna give you a pat on the back until you just suck it up. There are moments when I do want to say that absolutely, right? And there are some instances where it is meant for that. Like hey, like we talked about this three times. You just cry. This is the fourth time you cry today. You're just crying to cry. But in some of the other instances, it's not that. It's something else that's wrong. And we need to get the to the grassroots of the what what the problem is, as opposed to just getting it under the rug and being like, hey, I dealt with this, you can deal with it too. You'd be all right, but like that's that's just not it.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

That that last statement, I've dealt with this, you can do better, right? I mean that's how that's I think again, I think that's like just a lot of men in general. Like someone's going through something and you're like, bro, whatever, that's not even a big deal because I did that. Right. And it's like, okay, does it mitigate the struggle? You know, we're not all built the same, you know what I'm saying? We're not all built the same. So yeah, but but it's it's it's different. It's like it's just a different perspective. Like that that definitely's got my my my outlook different. It's it changed, it changed my my goals from that point. Once I was like, something's again, something's not right. Like for me to know my my mind is constantly working and asking myself for isolation is something that it's not normal for someone who's an extrovert. For someone to be in isolation and ask of isolation, but you're in it and not realize it. Right. So uh, but you know, like even those like that's just not normal. Like you're you're alone in your room going, I need to be alone in a room. Yeah. Well, you are, right? So, like that, those are things where I'm like, okay, so I check in, I check in on my kids. I check, you know, so I I've always checked in on my friends. Um, but sometimes I check in a little different uh and be like, yo, you good? You you you good? You know what I mean? Um, and so you're trying to go get a drink, like and let's try to go in more of a comfortable environment, uh, whatever the case. Uh, and I even propose different solutions than the past. I don't know, you probably do, but like I prop, like I said, I propose therapy a lot. Like, hey man, it's not a bad thing, it's good. I do it. I I would keep doing it, but my therapist, you know, was like, you're in the place you don't kind of really need it. And so I was like, okay. Um, but I'm I still will go again every so often, right? Just to be like, it's just like here's my take it like a physical man, it's manual checkup.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

Meanwhile, you start getting on the couch and being like, Hey, are you good? Are you all right? I've been coming often, but you haven't been seeing like the same type of person. But you know, but it's it's good, man. It's it's just good conversation to have. I think it's like a routine maintenance check, right? Like you you do your car once every couple of months. You just want to check in with somebody just to make sure that everything is working right.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

Do you uh do anything to like help with your mental health now?

SPEAKER_02 40:11

Uh yeah, I like to go on walks. So I you know, I've been talking to you about my walks. I get up early in the morning and um lately it's been a little bit later, around five thirty-six. To some people I know that's a little bit early, but I'll I'll get it five thirty-six in the morning.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

And um I'll take a good, you know, five mile walk, probably two and a half mile away, another two and a half mile back. All weekends I'll probably like to do a longer walk. Um because this is basically a reflection time, man. And like where I live, you know, I'm in California, the the weather's pretty decent here, there's no snow going on, so you can pretty walk for a pretty a long period of time. And it's like the topography is super majestic looking because there's a lot of you know, like the nice mountains and stuff and the ocean, and so it's nice. And uh I think that it's also just a good way for me to check in with myself. Not only to just listen to some music, I'll listen to some news or something too, but then I'll I'll play back in my mind what happened maybe the day before. Something that I needed to follow up with, but I just feel like I'm a lot sharper that way too, you know? Because you just you take some time for yourself as opposed to getting up and going and then just going into your day. Like if you take the time for yourself, I don't care if it's just like five minutes or 55 minutes, right? Take the moment, take the time to just reflect. Um, because that's one of my biggest goals for this year in general, um, because I want it to be part of just my lifestyle, but I think for the goal, at least for the short term, it's a goal this year to do more reflection. I don't care if it's writing in a journal, talking to myself, listen to music, going on a walk, riding a bike, playing basketball, or you're watching a basketball game, you do whatever it is that you like to do, take a moment for yourself um and then in that moment try to do some reflection. And um some of my biggest learnings I think happen in that reflection. Um, even without me knowing it, subconsciously sometimes you're just playing things back in your mind and you're reflecting, you know, and ask yourself questions. I think that's one of the biggest things for me is um you know, some people are like, what are you a therapist? I'm like, no, I'm not a therapist, I'm just curious. I am like, I am I have a curiosity like nobody is I just want to know. It's not being nosy, I'm I'm I literally sometimes I'm I want to know because I selfishly want to be better. And um I'm only gonna be better if I ask other people questions. And if depending on what they say, I'm learning regardless of actually what they say, I'm learning, right? I'm learning a little bit about them, but in turn, I'm learning about myself. So it it's like you take pieces in who you are today, right? Is a combination of all the people that you kind of engage with. Um, but they also say the the who you are today uh is also a combination of the five or four most people, common people you hang out with most often. I think that's very true. But I think that um the the core of who you are in terms of your foundation is a combination of all the things that you've experienced in life, not necessarily just the people that you engage with today. Um, and I think those are the moments that I'm leading with curiosity and having questions. Um that that I I learned a lot about myself. And also I think I become a lot better, stronger, smarter, faster. Um, because the people that I speak to are a lot smarter than me, you being one of them as well in many things. And so the more I speak to you, the the smarter I get. So that that works that worked for me. That's my superpower. I steal other people's powers.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

You know, that that is that is a power. Yeah, that that that. Walking thing, I heard you say it's a goal of yours. I definitely changed some goals for me. I'm you're curious. I'm very, for some reason, obsessed with growth. Um growth, the and growth, like I've noticed the older I gotten, the more obsessed I'm with growth. It's kind of, I don't know if it's getting healthy. Even I'm wondering, like, what is this obsession? But I've I'm I'm obsessed with growth, like personal growth. Um, I used to set a lot of my goals every year, right? Like you, you would say stuff like you said, like you was like, oh, every year I analyze my bills, which one can go? And I'm like, wow, right? I'm gonna do that. And then it was, and then it was like, I do a vision board. It's like, damn, I don't do that. And then it was like this, that, and the third. So, but I did goals, right? But my goals were always like small, or they was not fully developed. And then as I got older, they got more, more grand. Um, and then it started trending more and more in uh career and less and less personal. And then once I started going through like, you know, some of those challenges, I was like, uh, it was last year, actually. I was like, I only have one goal for the year, and it's self-care. And that was it. Love it. No other goals. Didn't even write it down. It's like, don't need to write this down, right? Like part of my self-care was that, like, not writing it down, not feel, not making it feel like a task to accomplish. But it was very foreign. It was like, hey Thunder, trying to do self-care. Like, that's awesome. And I was like, how do I do that? Because I only know it as one ways a minute, just go to gym. That's how we know. I don't know, I didn't go to gym. I was like, I'm exercised, I'm exercised, and she's like, what else? And I was like, what do you mean what else? What else is there? I'm not gonna go get my nails done all the time or whatever. And that's when she was like, No, like you can do skincare and you can do this, and and I was like, Yeah, and so talking to you, and you're like, you gotta take care of yourself, man. You gotta get yourself stuff if you know you can, and and and I was like, yes, I'm gonna get me my own soap. Like, I just I got soap, I got pajamas, I got like small things, man, right? I do skincare and like all those little things. I would do it with my wife, but I did it because my wife wanted to do it. Now I'm like doing it myself, right? Um, and I even self-care in a way of like setting a boundary of like, look, man, I know you're going through a hard time right now, and I always was the type to like want to help people, but I'm like, I I just I can't I can't help you right now. Like just for my being, like, I need to put a boundary. And it can sound sometimes like messed up, but it was like, it's like a plain analogy, like I gotta put my mask on. Yeah, I don't think it's messed up. I can't, I can't help you. Yeah, but it feels it feels, and so part of my self-care was even that, just putting a little boundary. And won't lie, like, you know, I was going through a tough time at one point, and um, I was like, I'm here for you, but like I I can't be full in in on this with you right now. Um, because like I'm still I'm still like I told her, I was like, I'm still getting myself out of it. I just can't get back in it. And she and she was like, no, I I like that. I like I'm happy for you. I wish I can do the same. Um and so like it's my whole goals have changed and all of that um because of that. And again, when I talk to you, just small stuff like you said, like you go for your walks at five in the morning. I'm like, wow, oh yeah, that's cool. I go to the gym at like five in the morning, right? Um, but it's still like interesting to be like, why do you go for walks? Because I go to the gym for this goal, and your walking is an entirely different goal than why I go to the gym, right? And your your like outcome from it is different, and what it does for you is different. But it's just good because I it's a different avenue of conversation. I get to bounce off of you and then get to learn from you as well, and then take that and then apply it to someone else. And then when I talk to them, like, oh, my boy Greg goes for walks at five in the morning. Why don't you go for walks? Like you say you don't have time, maybe you just need to get up at five in the morning or something, right? Like you have the time, like it's it's sometimes like nope, just gotta go to work and that's it.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

No, it's good, and I I love that, man. Like, uh do it all, man. That's why your skin is glowing right now. I see it, you know. But you gotta do all the skincare stuff, man. Whatever it is that works, that makes you happy, you gotta do it because who else is gonna do it for you but yourself, man? And that that's great that your wife is supportive, and uh that means you're you know, y'all are doing good. And I love that. I love that. We need to do more of that, and we gotta talk more about this. And uh I appreciate the conversation too, because I think it's um it's just an opportunity to really sit back and say to yourself, like, okay, man, what do I want out of life? Right? And not to get all altruistic on anybody here. I'm not trying to go all philosophical, but like, what do you want out of life? And if there are things that really mean the most to you, right, in terms of your self-care and that's right now you your only one goal, then freaking do it. Go hard on that because you know, when else are you gonna find an opportunity to do it? So I love that.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

And I want to I want to do one thing. I do want to transition to because we've said some good points, right? But I wanted to transition to the Dwayne thing. Um and the reason I want to transition is because his first comment again, I was I I saw it and I was like, man, this is this is this is so valid in so many areas, yeah, right? And then his next statement was just like you it's like you just disregarded your first statement. And um and he was like, he said in like I think within like five minutes after the interview, he was saying, uh men don't need gratitude. No, no, I'm sorry. He says men don't need all those like other things that we've discussed, basically. He was saying men need gratitude, and they need gratitude from the people men are carrying burdens for. I would love to know your point of view on that.

SPEAKER_02 50:03

So I'll address it in two ways. So I think that the first comment is yes, I agree, men do need gratitude, but they also need all the things that he initially meant, right? So, and I think it depends on the state and where you are in your life. I think because I've done the work, and I think a lot of you have done the work, especially like as you get married and you're in a relationship, you've had a lot of growth, you have a sense of self and understanding, and you're able to vocalize exactly your feelings and how you feel. Now that you're there, right? Everything that you do moving forward outside of yourself, you still want to feel appreciated for, right? And so, like anybody does, like you know, like the reality is I don't care who you are, nine times out of ten, it feels good for somebody to have a good job. It's not necessarily a good job, but good job for what? Like, let's be specific. But you don't want to feel like you're doing everything in vain or goes recognize. I think one of the best things that you can do for a man is him up, right? Soak my ego. I want to be strong, no pun intended, but soak my stroke my ego, like struggle all day long because I that will make me this is going crazy. That will hype me up because that's gonna make me feel like, oh, you guessed, yeah, like man, go with it. Oh like, yes, do that all day long because I'm a prideful human being. I know that I have pride about myself, but I know that about me. Now, am I so prideful that I'm ignorant to the uh insights and um uh um uh perspectives of other people? No, but I am prideful when it comes to me and my my wife and my relationship. I want her to appreciate me, I want my sons to appreciate me, right? All the things that I do because everything that we do is not necessarily done in vain or without sacrifice, right? We do sacrifice some parts of ourselves. Um, some may not think it is a sacrifice because it is simply part of the role that you are playing, and when you signed up for being a dad and a husband, but in some instances, I didn't have to do this, right? I choose to do this because it is part of who I am, it is part of being a man and part of uh being myself and being a provider, but it would feel good, but it does feel good when somebody says thank you. I appreciate you. You have to do this. We are grateful, right? It doesn't have to, you don't have to bow down and kiss my feet and do all this stuff, but a little, you know, see you. That feels good, that goes a long way. I want to ever feel taken for granted. Same thing with my wife. I'm sure she doesn't want to feel taken for granted, but I think in particular men, right? Because I think sometimes our our kind of groups that we coincide within, like the the guys that we hang around, we're not going around appreciating each other and talking about, hey, I appreciate you, man. Like, you know, say I appreciate you don't say all the things you because we're not really going around doing things for other men, but we are doing things for you know our families on a regular basis, right? For our wives on a regular basis, we want to feel appreciated. I mean, everybody does because we want to feel seen, even when like let me say something. Um, I laugh at it too, but even when my wife walks past me sometimes and she'll just you know smack my butt real quick. I'll be like, oh, I see you. You know, she's like, Oh, I'm like, Yeah, I know, mommy. You know, things you want to feel sane, I can feel desired. Everybody wants to feel that way. I don't know anybody in a relationship that's feeling like nah, that's me. No, say all the nice things to me. That that's like I'm a big acts of service guy. You know what I'm saying? A really good, wholesome, straight up you put your foot in it and type meal and say all the greatest things to me, and I will give you the work. Done and done. That's all I need. I don't need a lot, don't need a lot.

SPEAKER_00 54:13

I'm gonna I want to get your thoughts on this part.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

So I agree with what you're saying, all that, and how there's the tandem, like you said, like for the gratitude and the additional earlier stuff to the earlier stuff. One reason Dwayne said men need gratitude and not that, it creates weaker men. We don't need more weak men in today's society. Now what's your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 54:45

Yeah, I I think it still close eyes with my response. It depends on what stage and you are in your life. I think you need all those things that he mentioned as we are growing up.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

Like you need somebody that kind of talked to you about your feelings and both a lot of those things.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

Those are important today as you get older. Like the the example that I shared with you when I was in college, I don't consider myself as being a man. I was a young young man, maybe, but I wasn't a full grown man for where I understood the world the way I understand it today, and and based on the responsibilities that I had. You understand what I'm saying? Not because I know who I am in the position that I have in the relationships that I am in, I feel more solid and kind of just vocalize how I'm feeling and what's going on. I don't necessarily need to be codified or spoken to in such a way that in dental, not mental, but like in which I feel like like like my professor and my cousin came to me and was like, Oh, just tell me what's wrong. Tell me, you know, I can tell my wife not what's wrong with it. Like I I can simply vocalize and say, here's what's going on with me, you know, here's what I got going on. I need to take a walk. I gotta manage my mental health. I'm in charge of my own happiness and I'm in charge of my own well-being. That's right. Do I can't do I want my wife to care for me and take it to check up on me? Yes, absolutely. But I myself am responsible for my well-being. Like as soon as I brought children into this world, I am no longer the the number one priority. My children are, my my wife is actually then my children, and then myself, because that is who I am. But that doesn't mean that I negate care. So I think that in the treatment and saying, you know, sitting around and talking about my feelings all the time, it's probably not where I need to be. Right? That can shock at me probably a little bit too much, and also because I know where I stand because I've done the work. But I think that you know, the men that have not done the work, I don't necessarily think that that makes them weaker men. It just makes them in a different place than everybody than some other men may be, and that's okay. That's okay. You know, and then later on you may find yourself at a place to say, Oh, I don't need any of this, so I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 57:12

But does it make you necessarily a weaker man? I don't agree with that. It just makes you in a different place than another man is. That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

That's okay. What popped up in my head was uh Superman. Oddly. So Superman popped in my head, and I was like, you know, it's it's strange to be Superman all the time. Superman doesn't want to be Superman all the time. There's a reason why he's Claw Kent on the side, right? It's tough to constantly be Superman. It's tough like to just always have to be that. And and because maybe you're not truly Superman. You're again, that's that beginning of the interview. I asked you, like, who are you as a person? Who are you as a man? So I was like, Yeah, I I I want to be tough. Yeah, I I'm probably naturally more tough than some people in some areas, not even realizing it, right? Like my my threshold may be higher or lower. Uh it's different for sure, but it's training to just always feel like you have to be that, like always feel like you have to just be the man. Yeah, and it's like you don't. Like you can just be you, you could put you could be chill, like in all those things. So it's again, as soon as you said, I was like, Superman don't want to be Superman all the time. Like, again, this is nothing to do with kryptonite. There's a reason he's Clark K. There's a reason he says, Let me be one of an everyday civilian. I just want to blend in sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 58:43

That's valid, I can see that. I can totally understand that perspective. No, because I agree with it as well. Um yeah, we all want to take a good break. And um I think it it it sometimes just being honest with yourself. It also takes too much energy out of you to be super man all the time. You're taking a break. You know, you're not quitting. You just want to take a break. I'm I'm not for that. I'm not for it.

SPEAKER_00 59:12

Yeah, part of part of the part of that like um strong network stuff, and then like um prioritizing self-care, uh just being around guys, just like all that talking, right? That's that's also one of the reasons why I stopped pushing for like um guys trips. Like I know you've messaged me about you know doing one, and obviously we can't do it because we're having twins, but um it's I it's a super valuable way of like, hey, let's just let's just simple stuff. Like I see the difference between men and women, and that pushed me to do the the the guys like poker nights on once a month or whatever, because like my wife was like staging brunches once a month, and her circle grew so organically, so naturally, right? Like, like as far as like the organic quickly, and it was amazing, and on top of it, it was like simple stuff they would do. Um, and it would last for hours and she'll come back so refreshed. And I was like, why is it so hard for me to get like five guys together to do something simplistic? Like I can get them to go to the bar, but even then that's still like an issue. Um, oh, let's do a guy's thing. That was an issue. But what I noticed is when I did do the guy stuff, it was that we did like when I did my last guy's trip, and I don't know about any of yours, but we was like, we was gonna go whitewater after. We woke up, it was cold in Maine, it was raining heavy, and it was like, oh, we're about to be out with that for like six hours, and it was like 6 a.m. And we all just looked at each other and was like, yo, trying to play some bear pong. And we played bad pong at like seven in the morning, right? And we still were like, you know, typical guy, like we just gotta do 25 push-ups and all this stuff, right? And um, this whole thing's been great, man. This this episode, I feel like it's we've got like the best content I've gotten in a while. And so I really like appreciate you jumping on here. I definitely need you to come back on here again because you have some other good strong topics I want to talk about, like you know, strengthening partnership in your marriage, slash, you know, um, with your partner. And you've mentioned a couple other things, and I think those are also super good topics I would like to dive in. So if you are willing to come back, I want you to come back. And then also because I need you to announce your your run from here, man. This is a good plan.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:39

But let me because I'm not running for mayor, so get out of here. But um, I'm always honored, man. It's always a pleasure connecting with you and talking to you, brothers. Like it doesn't matter what time of day it is or when it is, we're always good to um drop it up because it's always gonna get. I'll leave you with this, and I'll leave anybody who's listening with this. Um when you decide to not change, you're choosing, right? So if you know something is going on in your life, whether it's impacting you or bothering you, if you're just complaining about it, or if you're uh ignoring it, you're choosing it. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:18

That's all I got. That's probably the best outro I've had yet. I'm gonna run with that.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:28

Hi, baby.